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-Date is 2013-06-28, times are UTC+10. 

-{{{

---- Log opened Fri Jun 28 06:05:09 2013

-07:05 < whot> anyways. should we get started? keithp, emmes, mupuf_?

-07:06 < mupuf_> hi :)

-07:06 < marcoz> ah for f's sake. I completely forgot about that..   "I had _ONE_ job..."

-07:06 < whot> marcoz: don't worry about it, it's just copy past to the wiki, i'll do it later

-07:06 <+alanc> "... so I decided to volunteer for an open source project.   Now I have lots of jobs, just don't get paid for them."

-07:06 < whot> hehe

-07:07 < marcoz> ;)

-07:07 <+alanc> hmm, I saw stukreit eating lunch earlier, will poke him to login to irc

-07:08 -!- stukreit [~skreitma@inet-hqmc05-o.oracle.com] has joined #xf-bod

-07:08 < stukreit> sorry

-07:08 < marcoz> btw, i'm using mibbit because my work's firewall is giving me fits. but it's complaining that oftc banned mibbit. if I suddently disappear, that may be related.

-07:08 < whot> three things on the agenda: XDC updates, DMCA and xorg wiki license

-07:08 <+alanc> we'd only gotten as far as discussing the weather and starting to make a list of who wasn't here yet

-07:09 -!- mupuf_ is now known as mupuf

-07:09 < whot> XDC updates we may leave until keithp is here. DMCA - you guys may have seen alanc's email

-07:09 < whot> question is - is this something for us, or fdo in general, or?

-07:10 <+alanc> I think it's more for fdo in general, as the hosting org

-07:10 < whot> ok, so we just wait for sitewranglers to respond? the actual requirements are relatively easy to meet, hardest part is probably finding a volunteer :)

-07:10 <+alanc> unfortunately, my mail to sitewranglers always seems to end up their moderation queue for months and thus goes nowhere

-07:11 <+alanc> suppose I could file a bug report with them to do it, or just pester keithp

-07:12 < whot> sounds like a plan

-07:14 < whot> ok. any further comments on this?

-07:15 <+alanc> none from me

-07:15 < whot> next item: wiki/web page licenses. email is "Permission to translate your page [...]" forwarded from matthieu, if you've seen this. 

-07:15 < mupuf> whot: I wanted to bring that up, indeed

-07:16 < whot> original author asks for translations, but Matthieu pointed out that we don't have a license for the wiki, or at least none obviously displayed

-07:16 < whot> which brings up the usual issues, which license and do we retro-actively license everything on the wiki?

-07:17 < whot> I'm going to take the translation request of out the picture, I don't think it's a good idea for us to host any translations, too hard to verify and maintain. but we shouldn't stop anyone trying to do so on their websites

-07:18 < mupuf> I agree with that, the nouveau wiki has translations in many languages, but they are all outdated

-07:18 < marcoz> do we need to mention something about having a 'not an official translation' ?

-07:19 < mupuf> marcoz: you mean, requiring anyone translating to add a mention that "this is not an official translation"?

-07:20 < mupuf> If so, not hosting the page generally means "not an official translation"

-07:20 < marcoz> mupuf: something like that yes.

-07:20 < marcoz> ok,  just curious.

-07:21 < whot> yeah, we could require that but I'd rather stick with any of the default licensens and I don't think they do that. and mupuf is right, not on x.org == not official

-07:21 < mupuf> Deciding on a licence really isn't a problem. The real problem is retro-action I would say. 

-07:22 < mupuf> given the fact that the wiki allowed modification and read access by everyone, I would say that modification and free access were then "granted to everyone"

-07:23 <+alanc> and for the original request, there's hardly anything worth licensing or translating on http://www.x.org/wiki/FAQ

-07:23 <+alanc> though I guess a bunch of the sub-pages have content

-07:24 < mupuf> Something like CC-By-SA seems close to what the X.org devs would all agree on

-07:25 < mupuf> the By mention would be nice for translation as it would make sure that the original page is credited

-07:26 < mupuf> that should satisfy marcoz's concern

-07:26 < mupuf> the SA is debatable

-07:26 < whot> By would require the author, not the page to be mentioned, right? if so that's hard for a wiki

-07:26 <+alanc> I could live with https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

-07:26 < mupuf> good point

-07:27 <+alanc> but again, I don't know what we can do retroactively

-07:27 < mupuf> "You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work)."

-07:28 < mupuf> whot: so we can tell that we want people to reference the page, not the author

-07:28 < whot> mupuf: right, makes sense now (just checked what wikipedia does and they have by-sa and gfdl)

-07:28 < marcoz> is SA (share alike) debatable? seems like a requirement.  and I don't think we can do retro without prior permission since there is no license, by default author retains copyright (in the US)

-07:29 <+alanc> might have to check with SFLC if we can claim some sort of implied license in the act of posting to a public wiki

-07:29 < marcoz> most def. i'm most definitely NAL. i could way out in left field

-07:30 < mupuf> alanc: right, that was the point of what I was writing before. When anyone can read and modify what you wrote, can you expect people not to do it?

-07:30 < whot> lawyer territory. any volunteers for SFLC contact?

-07:31  * mupuf whistles

-07:31 <+keithp> sorry guys; adventures with my phone and I just got my calendar running again

-07:31 < whot> by-sa for future contributions ok with everyone? if so, we should slap that on the wiki page in a relatively prominent position

-07:31 < mupuf> +1 for the By-SA mention on the wiki

-07:32 < marcoz> +1

-07:33 < agd5f> +1

-07:33 < whot> ok, by-sa it is.

-07:34 < whot> marcoz: can I get you to reach out to sflc regarding the retroactive licensing?

-07:35 < marcoz> is Karen still the norm contact?

-07:36 < agd5f> marcoz: no, she's no longer at SLFC

-07:36 <+keithp> marcoz: no, she's at gnome these days

-07:36 < agd5f> Justin I think now?  stukreit?

-07:36 < stukreit> sorry, distracted... lemme read

-07:36 < marcoz> when did that happen?

-07:37 < marcoz> or am I having a senior moment?

-07:37 < agd5f> marcoz: year or so ago?

-07:37 < stukreit> So, I have some info about sflc: 

-07:37 < stukreit> justin left, then there was "Aaron", but he left recently too.

-07:37 <+keithp> last mail I have from them was from aaron

-07:37 < stukreit> So I have to contact Eben Moglin, the head of the place, and get a new name

-07:37 <+keithp> aaron williamson

-07:37 < stukreit> yup.

-07:38 <+keithp> I'd send him a note

-07:38 < marcoz> ok, i must just be having one of those days then. thx.

-07:38 < stukreit> Linkedin actually served me. it told me he had moved on

-07:38 < stukreit> So... I have to get on to contacting Eben, then I'll give you a name

-07:39 < marcoz> stukreit: the plan then is you'll get me a name, then I'll contact them about retro licensing?

-07:39 < stukreit> So, I "volunteer" to be the sflc contact, happy to do it. maybe even get another excuse to go to nyc. I have a kid there

-07:39 < stukreit> yes

-07:40 < stukreit> marcoz: yes

-07:40 < marcoz> works for me.

-07:40 < marcoz> stukreit: works for me

-07:40 < marcoz> ;)

-07:40 < whot> mupuf: can I volunteer you to slap the CC-BY-SA somewhere on the wiki?

-07:40 < whot> I'm a bit under this week with catching up

-07:40 < mupuf> whot: sure

-07:41 < whot> thx

-07:41 < whot> ok, last item on agenda is XDC - keithp, anything worth mentioning?

-07:42 <+keithp> need to fix the wiki so people can edit it again; I'll check with Joe and see if he can convert it over to iki

-07:42 <+keithp> otherwise we're unlikely to get many attendees registered

-07:43 < mupuf> keithp: good, because I'ven't be able to login or request a new account. It always end up with error 500

-07:43 <+keithp> I know

-07:43 <+keithp> we can't create new moin accounts, and the only way to re-enable existing ones is with a horrible shell script hack that runs as root

-07:44 < whot> provide an email on the wiki page to say "if you can't edit this, send an email here so we can add you"

-07:44 < whot> (for the registration page)

-07:44 < mupuf> whot: that's not a solution

-07:44 <+keithp> I'll see if Joe can't just convert the wiki over to iki soon

-07:45 < whot> no, but it'll parallelize (?) the registation and the wiki issues

-07:45 <+keithp> (mail already sent)

-07:45 < mupuf> getting an account on freedesktop is already a mess

-07:45 <+keithp> iki stuff is pretty easy; anyone with a shell account can create new iki accounts

-07:45 <+keithp> and iki accounts work for all wikis

-07:45 < mupuf> Marcin slusarz complained about waiting more than 3 months in order to be added to the nouveau group

-07:46 < mupuf> FYI, he still isn't

-07:46 < mupuf> keithp: that doesn't solve the problem of requesting an account on freedesktop

-07:47 < mupuf> and do we really want to give people access to a shell in order to be able to edit a wiki?

-07:47 <+keithp> mupuf: you don't need shell to edit the wiki, you just need someone with a shell to give you a wiki account

-07:47 < mupuf> keithp: that's nicer, indeed

-07:48 <+keithp> cool

-07:48 <+keithp> the goal is to make it not automatic as that always gets hacked

-07:48 <+keithp> but, to make it pretty darn easy

-07:48 < mupuf> right, but there should be a strong guarantee to get the validation in say 3 days or a week

-07:48 <+keithp> for a shell account?

-07:49 <+keithp> or for a wiki account?

-07:49 < mupuf> nope, for wikis

-07:49 < mupuf> for shell accounts, waiting more is generally ok

-07:49 <+keithp> for that, just troll on any xorg irc channel; the hope is someone will take pity on you

-07:49 < mupuf> good to know

-07:49 -!- marcoz [4358f4a2@78.129.202.38] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]

-07:50 < mupuf> who is going to receive the validation requests?

-07:50 <+keithp> essentially anyone with a shell account is welcome to create wiki accounts

-07:50 <+keithp> iki is all in git, so removing an account and clearing out damage is pretty quick

-07:51 <+keithp> so, abuse should be easier to repair than moin

-07:51 < mupuf> ok, good

-07:51 <+keithp> which is a lot like RCS in terms of version control

-07:51 < mupuf> will there be a ML we can subscribe to in order to receive those requests and add people?

-07:52 < mupuf> maybe this is a discussion for #freedesktop, but it really is important though

-07:55 < whot> well, #fredesktop is more likely to help you :)

-07:55 < whot> keithp: anything else on XDC?

-07:56 <+keithp> whot: We need a bunch more content on the wiki; I may need to get bart and ian to help flesh out that data

-07:58 < whot> do we have a travel sponsorship budget?

-07:58 < stukreit> nope. we generally accept all comers

-08:02 < whot> ok, that should be it then.

-08:02 < whot> oh, before I forget: stukreit any updates on 501c3

-08:02 < stukreit> not yet

-08:02 < whot> ok, thanks

-08:02 < whot> ok, that's it for today then. thanks for playing, gentlemen

-08:03 < whot> declaring meeting as closed

-

-}}}

+
+Date is 2013-06-28, times are UTC+10.  
+[[!format txt """
+--- Log opened Fri Jun 28 06:05:09 2013
+07:05 < whot> anyways. should we get started? keithp, emmes, mupuf_?
+07:06 < mupuf_> hi :)
+07:06 < marcoz> ah for f's sake. I completely forgot about that..   "I had _ONE_ job..."
+07:06 < whot> marcoz: don't worry about it, it's just copy past to the wiki, i'll do it later
+07:06 <+alanc> "... so I decided to volunteer for an open source project.   Now I have lots of jobs, just don't get paid for them."
+07:06 < whot> hehe
+07:07 < marcoz> ;)
+07:07 <+alanc> hmm, I saw stukreit eating lunch earlier, will poke him to login to irc
+07:08 -!- stukreit [~skreitma@inet-hqmc05-o.oracle.com] has joined #xf-bod
+07:08 < stukreit> sorry
+07:08 < marcoz> btw, i'm using mibbit because my work's firewall is giving me fits. but it's complaining that oftc banned mibbit. if I suddently disappear, that may be related.
+07:08 < whot> three things on the agenda: XDC updates, DMCA and xorg wiki license
+07:08 <+alanc> we'd only gotten as far as discussing the weather and starting to make a list of who wasn't here yet
+07:09 -!- mupuf_ is now known as mupuf
+07:09 < whot> XDC updates we may leave until keithp is here. DMCA - you guys may have seen alanc's email
+07:09 < whot> question is - is this something for us, or fdo in general, or?
+07:10 <+alanc> I think it's more for fdo in general, as the hosting org
+07:10 < whot> ok, so we just wait for sitewranglers to respond? the actual requirements are relatively easy to meet, hardest part is probably finding a volunteer :)
+07:10 <+alanc> unfortunately, my mail to sitewranglers always seems to end up their moderation queue for months and thus goes nowhere
+07:11 <+alanc> suppose I could file a bug report with them to do it, or just pester keithp
+07:12 < whot> sounds like a plan
+07:14 < whot> ok. any further comments on this?
+07:15 <+alanc> none from me
+07:15 < whot> next item: wiki/web page licenses. email is "Permission to translate your page [...]" forwarded from matthieu, if you've seen this. 
+07:15 < mupuf> whot: I wanted to bring that up, indeed
+07:16 < whot> original author asks for translations, but Matthieu pointed out that we don't have a license for the wiki, or at least none obviously displayed
+07:16 < whot> which brings up the usual issues, which license and do we retro-actively license everything on the wiki?
+07:17 < whot> I'm going to take the translation request of out the picture, I don't think it's a good idea for us to host any translations, too hard to verify and maintain. but we shouldn't stop anyone trying to do so on their websites
+07:18 < mupuf> I agree with that, the nouveau wiki has translations in many languages, but they are all outdated
+07:18 < marcoz> do we need to mention something about having a 'not an official translation' ?
+07:19 < mupuf> marcoz: you mean, requiring anyone translating to add a mention that "this is not an official translation"?
+07:20 < mupuf> If so, not hosting the page generally means "not an official translation"
+07:20 < marcoz> mupuf: something like that yes.
+07:20 < marcoz> ok,  just curious.
+07:21 < whot> yeah, we could require that but I'd rather stick with any of the default licensens and I don't think they do that. and mupuf is right, not on x.org == not official
+07:21 < mupuf> Deciding on a licence really isn't a problem. The real problem is retro-action I would say. 
+07:22 < mupuf> given the fact that the wiki allowed modification and read access by everyone, I would say that modification and free access were then "granted to everyone"
+07:23 <+alanc> and for the original request, there's hardly anything worth licensing or translating on http://www.x.org/wiki/FAQ
+07:23 <+alanc> though I guess a bunch of the sub-pages have content
+07:24 < mupuf> Something like CC-By-SA seems close to what the X.org devs would all agree on
+07:25 < mupuf> the By mention would be nice for translation as it would make sure that the original page is credited
+07:26 < mupuf> that should satisfy marcoz's concern
+07:26 < mupuf> the SA is debatable
+07:26 < whot> By would require the author, not the page to be mentioned, right? if so that's hard for a wiki
+07:26 <+alanc> I could live with https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/
+07:26 < mupuf> good point
+07:27 <+alanc> but again, I don't know what we can do retroactively
+07:27 < mupuf> "You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work)."
+07:28 < mupuf> whot: so we can tell that we want people to reference the page, not the author
+07:28 < whot> mupuf: right, makes sense now (just checked what wikipedia does and they have by-sa and gfdl)
+07:28 < marcoz> is SA (share alike) debatable? seems like a requirement.  and I don't think we can do retro without prior permission since there is no license, by default author retains copyright (in the US)
+07:29 <+alanc> might have to check with SFLC if we can claim some sort of implied license in the act of posting to a public wiki
+07:29 < marcoz> most def. i'm most definitely NAL. i could way out in left field
+07:30 < mupuf> alanc: right, that was the point of what I was writing before. When anyone can read and modify what you wrote, can you expect people not to do it?
+07:30 < whot> lawyer territory. any volunteers for SFLC contact?
+07:31  * mupuf whistles
+07:31 <+keithp> sorry guys; adventures with my phone and I just got my calendar running again
+07:31 < whot> by-sa for future contributions ok with everyone? if so, we should slap that on the wiki page in a relatively prominent position
+07:31 < mupuf> +1 for the By-SA mention on the wiki
+07:32 < marcoz> +1
+07:33 < agd5f> +1
+07:33 < whot> ok, by-sa it is.
+07:34 < whot> marcoz: can I get you to reach out to sflc regarding the retroactive licensing?
+07:35 < marcoz> is Karen still the norm contact?
+07:36 < agd5f> marcoz: no, she's no longer at SLFC
+07:36 <+keithp> marcoz: no, she's at gnome these days
+07:36 < agd5f> Justin I think now?  stukreit?
+07:36 < stukreit> sorry, distracted... lemme read
+07:36 < marcoz> when did that happen?
+07:37 < marcoz> or am I having a senior moment?
+07:37 < agd5f> marcoz: year or so ago?
+07:37 < stukreit> So, I have some info about sflc: 
+07:37 < stukreit> justin left, then there was "Aaron", but he left recently too.
+07:37 <+keithp> last mail I have from them was from aaron
+07:37 < stukreit> So I have to contact Eben Moglin, the head of the place, and get a new name
+07:37 <+keithp> aaron williamson
+07:37 < stukreit> yup.
+07:38 <+keithp> I'd send him a note
+07:38 < marcoz> ok, i must just be having one of those days then. thx.
+07:38 < stukreit> Linkedin actually served me. it told me he had moved on
+07:38 < stukreit> So... I have to get on to contacting Eben, then I'll give you a name
+07:39 < marcoz> stukreit: the plan then is you'll get me a name, then I'll contact them about retro licensing?
+07:39 < stukreit> So, I "volunteer" to be the sflc contact, happy to do it. maybe even get another excuse to go to nyc. I have a kid there
+07:39 < stukreit> yes
+07:40 < stukreit> marcoz: yes
+07:40 < marcoz> works for me.
+07:40 < marcoz> stukreit: works for me
+07:40 < marcoz> ;)
+07:40 < whot> mupuf: can I volunteer you to slap the CC-BY-SA somewhere on the wiki?
+07:40 < whot> I'm a bit under this week with catching up
+07:40 < mupuf> whot: sure
+07:41 < whot> thx
+07:41 < whot> ok, last item on agenda is XDC - keithp, anything worth mentioning?
+07:42 <+keithp> need to fix the wiki so people can edit it again; I'll check with Joe and see if he can convert it over to iki
+07:42 <+keithp> otherwise we're unlikely to get many attendees registered
+07:43 < mupuf> keithp: good, because I'ven't be able to login or request a new account. It always end up with error 500
+07:43 <+keithp> I know
+07:43 <+keithp> we can't create new moin accounts, and the only way to re-enable existing ones is with a horrible shell script hack that runs as root
+07:44 < whot> provide an email on the wiki page to say "if you can't edit this, send an email here so we can add you"
+07:44 < whot> (for the registration page)
+07:44 < mupuf> whot: that's not a solution
+07:44 <+keithp> I'll see if Joe can't just convert the wiki over to iki soon
+07:45 < whot> no, but it'll parallelize (?) the registation and the wiki issues
+07:45 <+keithp> (mail already sent)
+07:45 < mupuf> getting an account on freedesktop is already a mess
+07:45 <+keithp> iki stuff is pretty easy; anyone with a shell account can create new iki accounts
+07:45 <+keithp> and iki accounts work for all wikis
+07:45 < mupuf> Marcin slusarz complained about waiting more than 3 months in order to be added to the nouveau group
+07:46 < mupuf> FYI, he still isn't
+07:46 < mupuf> keithp: that doesn't solve the problem of requesting an account on freedesktop
+07:47 < mupuf> and do we really want to give people access to a shell in order to be able to edit a wiki?
+07:47 <+keithp> mupuf: you don't need shell to edit the wiki, you just need someone with a shell to give you a wiki account
+07:47 < mupuf> keithp: that's nicer, indeed
+07:48 <+keithp> cool
+07:48 <+keithp> the goal is to make it not automatic as that always gets hacked
+07:48 <+keithp> but, to make it pretty darn easy
+07:48 < mupuf> right, but there should be a strong guarantee to get the validation in say 3 days or a week
+07:48 <+keithp> for a shell account?
+07:49 <+keithp> or for a wiki account?
+07:49 < mupuf> nope, for wikis
+07:49 < mupuf> for shell accounts, waiting more is generally ok
+07:49 <+keithp> for that, just troll on any xorg irc channel; the hope is someone will take pity on you
+07:49 < mupuf> good to know
+07:49 -!- marcoz [4358f4a2@78.129.202.38] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
+07:50 < mupuf> who is going to receive the validation requests?
+07:50 <+keithp> essentially anyone with a shell account is welcome to create wiki accounts
+07:50 <+keithp> iki is all in git, so removing an account and clearing out damage is pretty quick
+07:51 <+keithp> so, abuse should be easier to repair than moin
+07:51 < mupuf> ok, good
+07:51 <+keithp> which is a lot like RCS in terms of version control
+07:51 < mupuf> will there be a ML we can subscribe to in order to receive those requests and add people?
+07:52 < mupuf> maybe this is a discussion for #freedesktop, but it really is important though
+07:55 < whot> well, #fredesktop is more likely to help you :)
+07:55 < whot> keithp: anything else on XDC?
+07:56 <+keithp> whot: We need a bunch more content on the wiki; I may need to get bart and ian to help flesh out that data
+07:58 < whot> do we have a travel sponsorship budget?
+07:58 < stukreit> nope. we generally accept all comers
+08:02 < whot> ok, that should be it then.
+08:02 < whot> oh, before I forget: stukreit any updates on 501c3
+08:02 < stukreit> not yet
+08:02 < whot> ok, thanks
+08:02 < whot> ok, that's it for today then. thanks for playing, gentlemen
+08:03 < whot> declaring meeting as closed
+
+"""]]
\ No newline at end of file